Saturday, 1 April 2017

Scotland is not a colony, the UK is not an empire


Alex Salmond wishes to inform us that “the days of the British Empire are over, and the days of British prime ministers denying self-determination to the Scottish people are over as well.” There are all sorts of odd things about this sort of statement. Most of us who have any knowledge of history are well aware that the British Empire is over. There are a few British Overseas Territories, but they are few and far between. They could hardly be called an Empire. So Mr Salmond is informing us of something we already know. Why is he talking of the British Empire at all? Could it be that he thinks that Scotland is somehow the last remnant of that Empire?



I come across the idea every now and again from Scottish nationalists that Scotland is somehow a colony. I sometimes wonder where such ideas come from. Well obviously they come from the top. But it is a very odd idea none the less. If Scotland is a colony, who has been colonising us? From where have they come? During the British Empire people from the UK did indeed settle in parts of the Empire. Many of the descendants of those people still live in Australia, New Zealand and Canada. So who are the settlers who came to Scotland? Are they the English, the Poles or the Pakistanis? It’s fairly obvious how offensive this is likely to get quite quickly.

Scotland isn’t a colony. Rather for the past 300 years and more we have been part of a nation state called the United Kingdom where people have moved about freely. Scots have moved to England in large numbers. English people have moved to Scotland. This is not settling an Empire, but rather it is people moving within their own country. I am not colonising England if I decide to set up home there. It is ludicrous and offensive to suggest that I am.

Mr Salmond is complaining about a British Prime Minister apparently denying something to the Scottish people. What is this thing that is apparently being denied and who is denying it to whom? Firstly there is a false distinction between a “British Prime Minister” and the “Scottish people”. A British Prime Minister could well be a Scot and has been on many occasions. Moreover, the Scottish people are all British citizens. Some of them may not like this fact at the moment, but nevertheless it is a fact. Britain is not some Empire ruling over Scotland. Rather we are British. If you doubt this, I suggest you look at your passport at the point at which states British citizen.

Has anyone denied self-determination to the Scottish people? It depends what we mean by the “Scottish people”. Who are they and how do we determine who they are? Are Scots a tribe that can be distinguished from other people in the UK? If so I would very much like to know on what basis Alex Salmond thinks he is from a different tribe to Theresa May. Is it because he speaks a different language to her? Is it because his culture or religion is vastly different to hers? Does he think that his ancestry means that his tribe by necessity must diverge from her tribe? What then is this “Scottish people” that Alex Salmond belongs to but, Theresa May doesn’t? How is it defined?

No-one is denying self-determination to people in Scotland for the simple reason that we live in a democracy. The British Prime Minister was elected just as much by Scots as she was by any other British citizen. The fact that most Scots would have preferred someone else is neither here nor there. In any democracy some people are disappointed. Scotland is not ruled as if we were part of an Empire, because we each have just as much representation and just as much electoral power as any other British citizen. I as a Scot have one vote in a General Election. So too does someone in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. In addition I have a vote for the Scottish Parliament where all sorts of devolved issues are decided.

Constitutional matters are not devolved. That was the deal when we set up the Scottish Parliament. That is what people in Scotland voted for. The Scottish Parliament cannot decide UK foreign policy, nor can it decide UK macroeconomic policy and nor can it decide that Scotland ought to have a vote to become independent. For this it requires permission. This is what the majority of Scots voted for when we voted to establish a Scottish Parliament.

No-one, as far as I am aware, has denied Scotland the right to have another independence referendum. All that has been said is that the SNP will have to wait. There is nothing undemocratic about this for the simple reason that electorate in Scotland expressed their view about this matter decisively less than three years ago.

There is hardly a nation state in existence that would allow a part a vote to leave. I can think of no EU member state that would allow such a vote. The United States likewise has shown that it would prefer to fight than allow itself to break up. Yet because the UK Prime Minister has said that Scotland will have to wait, Alex Salmond has the nerve to describe her as if she were Queen Victoria and Scotland was part of Empire.
People in Scotland are a similar mix to people in other parts of the UK. Some of us can trace our ancestry back to Macbeth others of us have arrived more recently. We have a shared history, language and culture with our fellow British citizens across the UK. There is no real distinction between us.

What I find most peculiar is the contradiction in Scottish nationalist reasoning.  The SNP accept that someone can arrive from anywhere in the UK or the world and become part of the Scottish people. They can do this almost instantly. All that is required is that you live in Scotland. But how is it that this quality of being Scottish is so easily acquired that Theresa May could acquire it simply by retiring to Inverness, but that after three hundred years of living in the same nation state Scots cannot acquire the quality of being British? How is it so easy for anyone to become a Scot, but so apparently impossible for Scottish nationalists to be British. After all we Scots live in the United Kingdom. Does this not by the reasoning of civic nationalism make us British? If not, why not? If we all share the same identity by virtue of living in the same country, why on earth are they trying to split it up?

Given how easy it is to become Scottish. Given how this quality is open to anyone who arrives, on what basis does Alex Salmond speak of the Scottish people at all? This is where the real nature of his thinking peaks through. He feels that there is a real distinction between a Scot and someone from elsewhere in the UK and it isn’t a matter of where they live.


The SNP like to give the impression of how welcoming they are. All those Remain voters who are disappointed by Brexit should move to Scotland. But what if they actually took up Nicola Sturgeon’s invitation? What if the UK Government decided to help them by giving them tax breaks and grants to move to Scotland? We could set up some new towns and add half a million to the Scottish population quite quickly. But what if these new arrivals despite their wishing to remain in the EU also wished to remain British citizens and for the UK to remain intact? What if they opposed Scottish independence and by their arrival tipped the balance against the SNP? How long would it be before they were described by Scottish nationalists as settlers? After all Alex Salmond apparently already thinks that they come from an Empire. 

109 comments:

  1. Great read,have said this for years,we are all generally the same tribe.Yes there's Gaels,Norse, Normans etc added in but in essence we're all family. Blood is thicker than water

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  2. And just like with immigration, Brexit/EU and IndyRef2 Salmond is out of sync with the Scottish people.

    YouGov surveyed this in Aug 2016: what makes a person Scottish?

    Born in Scotland - 87% agree
    Grew up in Scotland - 69% agree
    One or two Scottish parents - 50%-71% agree
    Lived in Scotland 10yrs+ - 35% agree
    Lived in Scotland <5 years - 16% agree

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/09/07/what-makes-person-scottish/

    The only reason Salmond/SNP push this geographic conception of "people of Scotland" (meaning "in" Scotland) is because they don't want ex-pats living in the rUK voting in a future referendum and do want EU nationals voting.

    Yes a Lithuanian living in Scotland for a few months outranking someone born in Scotland who moved to London doesnt make much logical sense but it's not supposed to. Just like "Tories" aren't "Scots" even if they do live there.

    The only "true Scots" allowed are Nationalists.

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    1. You don't like foreigners much do you Mark ?

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    2. England doesn't make any decisions! They have about as much say as Wales, N.I and Scotland!

      But the British have a lot of say in the matter!

      It just so happens that Britains Capital decision making is made in a country called England which also happens to be an integral part of Britain! That includes the Welsh, N.I and of course Scotland!!

      It's amazing how much shit and confusion you bloody nationalists create and I'm not just talking about Scottish Nationalists! That includes you English, Welsh and Northern Irish nationalists too!

      You'll end up bringing this nation to Civil War!

      Against the Unionists!!

      Get over yourselves! Go and explore the world ��!!

      The beginning of your life doesn't have to start and end in the same country!

      If you hadn't of bankrupted your country because of the Damian scheme in the first place....there would never have been a Britain as we've known it for the past 300 years!!

      You bloody jocks we're the ones that created Britain!!!!!!

      Now get over it!! You don't hear the Welsh, N.I or English crapping on about bloody independence!!

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    3. It's not all of us Robert. The majority of Scots oppose independence. If there was a single unionist party, it would clean up. Unfortunately there are 4 competing against each other. Normal service will eventually resume but in the meantime English people need to stand with Scottish Unionists and not make the mistake of assuming the SNP speaks for us all.

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  3. My passport declares I am also a EU citizen but because England has the greater say in everything I have to lose this citizenship? That in itself would make me vote yes in an independence refers sum!

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    1. Depending on how you draw you lines, the South of England voted remain.

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    2. Your passport declares nothing of the sort, Anonymous, it quite clearly says on the cover of your passport in block capitals "EUROPEAN UNION - UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND" and inside the document and under nationality it says "BRITISH CITIZEN".

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    3. The EU is a cesspit anyway, riddled with corruption and in a process of slow collapse. England made the correct decision, Scotland the wrong one. We should get overruled when we are wrong. We had the chance to be independent and chose against it. You therefore must accept that the majority UK vote prevails.

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    4. Aldo as an Englishman we expect you to say that....

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    5. We were told independence was only way to stay in the EU....yet somehow that was a lie...among many many others. You can bank on it Aldo, people will not be fooled again

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    6. That was a consequence at the time of the vote but the vote wasn’t to stay in the EU. Scotland freely voted to remain in the United Kingdom. This latest push for another vote will leave Scotland out of the EU and out of the UK. Your post suggest you are a Scotsman living in Scotland but that’s not true either is it running man. Your profile says you are in Belgium.

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    7. Yes, a Belgian resident is calling me an 'Englishman' (not an insult, by the way), and decrying my views on Scottish independence when I live here, was born here - to Scottish parents - and have lived here all my life save for the occasional foreign holiday. The cheek of these people knows no bounds.

      Look, running man, here's the deal. In about five years time, provided the SNP/Greens possess a majority (far from certain), we will be offered a choice;

      A decent brexit deal that isn't disastrously different to what we have now.

      OR

      Scottish independence. Years of divorce proceedings then years of negotiations with the EU before we can get in, on vastly inferior terms. Years of being outside of both UK and EU. And all this following on from brexit.

      If it isn't over yet mate, it soon will be.

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    8. We'll see , BTW currently enjoying sunny Germany workwise so Belgium is a bit behind me now....Apologies on the English thing ;o) Just testing...

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    9. Being in Germany is getting to you. European empires, 'you vil be punished!' and all that carry on. Makes sense now.

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  4. Unfortunately logic does not trump the Nationalists' prejudice! And the prejudice feds on the 'special' treatment that UK gives Scotland, which is the essence of devolution. For that we have Labour to thank, which started the devolution in order to maintain its own strength in Scotland. Well, at least Labour deserves what SNP dishes out to it.

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    1. and in fact blocked it in 1979 despite a majority in favor....with the 40% nonsense

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    2. Minimum turnout requirements and supermajorities and the like are fairly common instruments used in setting the bar for constitutional change. The people of Scotland seemed happy enough with the arrangement anyway - they voted Labour for decades afterwards.

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    3. Fairly common...? Once historically ever is hardly fairly common and does not excuse the deviousness involved.

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    4. In the United States, a supermajority of Congress is required to change the constitution. The senate is never all up for grabs in a single election as the founding fathers didn't want the American government to be susceptible to too much change too quickly. Spain has a written constitution that says all Spain must vote on the separation of a part of Spain. Setting the bar high on constitutional change is common. Should Scotland ever become independent, it will be completely dysfunctional and divided, with half the country hating the other half. This will only get worse as the austerity kicks in.

      Some changes should require more than a simple majority of the votes cast.

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  5. I think a certain number of people confuse "self-determination" with "independence" or "exclusive self-government". "Self-determination" was exercised fully in 2014.

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    1. and self determination can be exercised anytime....Thats the bit you miss.

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    2. No, it can't. If we decide we hate the government and demand a general election tomorrow, we wont get it. So the kind of self determination that you envisage doesn't really exist. Add to this the reality that we don't exist in a vacuum (we are part of a larger nation of which we account for 8%) and also that your precious EU actively seeks to remove self determination and I don't think you really have a leg to stand on with this one.

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    3. yes it can and it will :O), watch it evolve with Breexit as the surprise catalyst.

      I want all taxes in Scotland , managed in Scotland. Not London. Its a simple need.

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    4. No, it wont. You're up against a brick wall. You lost a referendum which means the British parliament has sovereignty - and they have said 'no'. You have nowhere to go now. This will become obvious to you as the months and then years unfold with nothing happening.

      We pay 53 billions in taxes and get 68 billion back. We profit from the UK. We also have control over a huge swathe of vital public services as well as tax raising powers. Our simple needs are met. They clearly would not be in an indy Scotland, strapped for cash and suffering Europe-imposed austerity.

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    5. Of course we do....Too poor , wonder we survive at all...Good old England for keeping us afloat....Meanwhile in the real world...

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    6. It's actually the South East of England that keeps the entire country afloat by way of redistributive taxation. But if you consider Britain to be a single unit, that's not a problem. It only becomes an issue when you attempt a return to medieval land borders.

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  6. “the days of the British Empire are over, and the days of British prime ministers denying self-determination to the Scottish people are over as well.”

    Wasn't Scotland a driving force behind the creation of the Union due to pressing financial issues?

    In 2014 the people of Scotland's self determination was expressed and the outcome was to stay as one with their brother and sisters across the UK.

    And they say we don't make things in the UK anymore. SNP been manufacturing grievence since 1930s.

    Surely nobody takes Salmond seriously anymore?

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    1. Wee Bucksboy there....no one even knows you never minds taking you seriously. Your Union is getting the last rites now...fill yir boots

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    2. "Your union is getting the last rites"

      As the SNP has been saying since 1934. We have also been treated to such delights from Salmond as "free by 93" and "independence heaven by 2007".

      The union is going nowhere.

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  7. Wow. empire 2.0 does not exist? And Scotland is just as wealthy as London? And Scotland is no different from England? Right.

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  8. No one is asking the question of how many referendums we have had. I believe it is around 4 or 5 in some form or another. Going back to the 1920 and on through the 70s and 90s. How many do we need?

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    1. Since 2010 alone we in Scotland have had two general elections, two Scottish parliament elections, one set of local elections and 3 referenda - AV voting system, Scottish independence, Europe. We also had the 2014 European Parliament elections. That's 9 votes in 7 years, from insignificant to potentially life changing. Enough is enough. We need a rest.

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    2. 9 little crosses in seven years you must be exhausted.

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    3. It's more than just a cross on a sheet of paper though, isn't it? Soul searching, research, fighting your corner - if you care, that is. If you realise there are consequences to making the wrong choice. I do realise that many, many people sail through life making bad choices only to be saved by those who make good choices. I can think of no better example of this than 18th September 2014.

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    4. You'll have had your democracy came the cry from Aldo's lounge.....

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    5. Yep. Democracy isn't a 'drop of the hat' thing - WE WAHNT A VOTE, GIES IT!!. No, it doesn't work that way. Parliaments and councils are elected for 5 year terms. It doesn't matter if, 2 years in, the sitting government makes you feel physically ill - you still have 3 more years to wait. Under the SNP's proposals, the 'once in a generation' 2014 referendum result will have expired and been binned after LESS than 5 years. Yes, apparently a council election now has greater respect attached to it than a referendum on secession. Such a thing should surely stand for 20 years or thereabouts, unless a supermajority in both parliaments demands a rerun.

      Democracy isn't mob rule. It's a system of checks and balances that takes account of peoples' views once in a while.

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    6. and it won't be up to wee guys like yourself to say no...The Scots will have their referendum, it's unstoppable and you know it.

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    7. No, it's up to the United Kingdom government to say no or yes as is appropriate. That's the only legal mechanism that can be followed. It isn't up to me or you or Sturgeon, who lacks the competence and power to make constitutional decisions unilaterally. The final say lies with the UK government, always.

      Rule of law and democracy - not mob rule.

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  9. I’m English and my wife is English because we were born here but we both have Scottish roots. My wife's mother is Scottish and married an Englishman and both my grandmothers were Scottish and married Englishmen. I’m sure this pattern has been replicated between the Scots and the English for many generations. We have Scottish blood so it ticks us off that neither of us can have any say in what happens is Scotland but a Pole who works in a coffee shop in Edinburgh for the last few months gets a vote. If the true Scots want to leave the Union then that’s fine as long as they are Scottish and not citizens of another country.

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    1. It has. We are a people rich in diversity. One nation of families not a family of nations.

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    2. So you have never lived in Scotland, were not born there and yet a guy living in Edinburgh should have no say ?

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    3. For any event as important as this only Scottish citizens should have a vote to leave the Union. No one else is entitled just because they live there regardless of how long that is. If you believe otherwise then you must accept that Scots living in the rest of the UK should also have a vote and that’s not what the SNP wants.

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    4. I'm a Scot living abroad most of teh year..I don't get a vote.

      What will happen is same as last time, people living in Scotland get a vote. This time of course all EU citizens will vote YES :+)

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    5. We'll be out of the EU, so the EU citizens will not be part of the franchise. Unless, of course, the British government grants them citizenship - in which case, they'll more than likely vote no.

      We will never allow you to rig an independence referendum in your favour ever again.

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    6. We will never allow....listen to you Mr Empire there.

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    7. You guys are obsessed with the empire.

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    8. Gibraltar is 4eva England !!! Send in the gunboats

      Aye its us who are obsessed....

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    9. The Gibraltarians consider themselves British and wish to remain so. So, yes, we'll defend them - by whatever means necessary. If we do end up in a war (unlikely) it will only be because Spain, egged on by the EU, started it. But, as I say, this is unlikely. Europe is playing mind games, nothing more.

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    10. Who did you say was obsessed by empire again ?....you just can't help it. Even when goaded it creeps out. Amazing world view.

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    11. I think I said the Gibraltarians wish to remain British. There's nothing empire like about that. In an empire you don't get a say. The Gibraltarians do and they wish to remain British, overwhelmingly.

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  10. Thanks Effie, After a tumultuous two weeks in UK politics if all you can come up with is "but we are all British!!!" then I think the UK is finished.
    By the way, when Scotland becomes independent we will still all be Jock Tamson's bairns.

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    1. I expect Shetland will make their excuses and not join in the independence party celebrations (when it happens). Perhaps others too.

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    2. The Independent, People's Socialist And Democratic (honest!) Republic of Glasgow and Dundee will, I am sure, prosper. Meanwhile, the rest of the British nation will be following Trumpism, demanding a 'wall' be built ;0)

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  11. Yet another pertinent blog. I wonder how many of SNP read these as Effie manages to reach the heart of any question. These blogs should be published widely in the hope that some Nats might read them and realise there's a different world out there and beyond the narrow thinking to which they adhere

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    1. David, given the events of the last two weeks which show British Nationalism in it's true inward looking colours and show Scottish Nationalism as internationalist perhaps you would like to look beyond the world according to Effie before hugging your forelock

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    2. Post brexit UK will seek to trade freely with the rest of the world, including Europe. It will treat Chinese people as being equal in their right to emigrate to Britain as people from France or Poland. That is true internationalism and stands a very good chance of succeeding, if the SNP could stop trying to break up Britain for 5 minutes.

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    3. Come on Aldo thats bollocks and you know it. What it means is no one is getting in and England will build a wall round itself.

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    4. I fully expect immigration to continue RM and at quite high levels. But we will be able to exercise a wee bit more control over who comes here. For example, you may want an Indian heart surgeon so you give him a pass but you tell the Polish berry picker to stay where he is because you already have 2 million unemployed plus plenty of students who can do that job. That way, you plug gaps in the economy and get the unemployed back to work and off welfare. It makes total sense.

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    5. The UK unemployed will be rubbing their hands at that thought.....

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    6. The UK unemployed need to do what is necessary to earn a living, instead of suckling on the tit of the state endlessly.

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  12. With brexit set to go on and on and on it now looks like it will be several years - and into the next Holyrood parliament - before indyref2 can be held. Of course, if there is a unionist majority then it can also be ruled out for that parliament.

    I am now feeling much more relaxed about this whole thing. It feels like we are winning - although we can never get complacent.

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    1. Unionist majority ....in Holyrood.....

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    2. Under the part PR system that Holyrood operates under, entirely possible - probable, even. The pro-indy contingent is currently 69 (including SNP and Greens). You need 65 or more for a majority. So a small amount of slippage could see the pro-indy majority wiped out.

      I know, I know - you're still giggling at "69" aren't you?

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    3. Of course it can happen but the trend is not at this point going that way. Tories unlikely to get more poular as they are in power and Brexit fallout will be their bag to carry.

      Labour...well I think that is one thing can agree on, they are going nowhere for forseeable future.

      Maybe Wullie Rennie can pull off a coup....

      Problem is that Tories are still Toxic since 80's, Brexit will be a disaster negotiation and Tory voters are in the main at the wrong end of demographics. So time is my friend.....

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    4. Meanwhile, the SNP screw up everything they touch. Schools a mess, hospitals a mess, police a joke, economy shrinking, indy drum getting banged endlessly - despite them losing a referendum. 220k signatures on a petition against their main policy (the vast majority of which are from Scotland). You've also been in power a decade.

      Time would appear to be against you - not that you'd ever admit it, of course.

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    5. yes but we have higher ratings now than at any previous time.....Tallest pigmy's and all that

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    6. We have 4 years of scandals, screw ups and single issue obsession still to go. Shave off a few percentage points of support and its all over for a half decade at least - probably longer, if Sturgeon stays in power as the head of a toothless minority government.

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    7. Scandals ? Did any actually come to anything or was it just bluster ?

      Hoestly though who do you think will gain from SNP 'demise' , are you betting on Tories ? FFS I already explained why they are finished..

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    8. What is going on in education is a scandal. The SNP have presided over its destruction. Literacy and numeracy levels plummeting, school leavers lacking basic skills, Scotland plummeting down the league tables, not enough teachers.

      If they keep screwing up important services and getting peoples' backs up, it is inevitable they will lose votes. Tories are now on 25-28%. If UKIP folded that could hit 28-31%. Labour are much maligned but haven't been in office for 10 years. Same with Lib Dems. They will therefore undoubtedly benefit to some extent due to not having been around when all the f*ck ups were happening.

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  13. What the separatists need to ask themselves, is whether the knee-jerk dislike for the people that occupy the other end of this tiny island, which they have been taught to respond to with Pavlovian efficiency, outweighs the financial armageddon which would be visited on their fellow Scots. Tough choice.

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    1. Maybe its a desire to leave neanderthals like you behind ?

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  14. Why is it that only in the UK are the component parts encouraged to keep their national identity. In the UK the Scots are Scottish and the Welsh are Welsh etc. Scotland kept its laws and customs and never was regarded, outside of Scotland anyway as second class. Unlike in America where we have Irish American or Italian American proud of their roots but also proud to be American we don’t have Irish English or Scottish British. We just have United Kingdom. Why is it that people like Sturgeon who has English heritage and even Angus Robertson who was born in London seem to have the most rabid nationalist views. Its a mystery to me.

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    1. Well, firstly, Scottish independence gives the chance for people who are currently middle managers to basically rule a country and be at the top of the tree. Secondly, they think they will get socialism in an Indy Scotland. Bollocks, I'm afraid. Scotland would be so broke that our budgets would make George 'axe man' Osborne look like Father Christmas.

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    2. 'Middle managers' is putting it a bit strong I think Aldo, the vast majority of the denizens of the Canongate assembly would struggle at County Council level. You are of course right, the temptation for so many of these intellectual inadequates to be 'big fish in a small pond', and in too many cases to also assuage their obvious '(English) father issues' is just too great to resist I suspect

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    3. State of you two......If only we Scots were rich with talent like Boris or Nuttal ? Is that what you are saying ?

      What causes your cringe ? Just an overwhelming lack of self esteem or is it you prefer posh accents due to being buggered senseless in your boarding school days?

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    4. Gurgle gurgle, the sound of your credibility going down the toilet.

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    5. That happened a long time ago.

      Now, its a beautiful day. No more wasting time on powerless nats and their very far off unionref2. I'm off to enjoy the sun.

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  15. This article *was* an April Fool's joke, wasn't it?

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  16. Ah, Running Man! Welcome back! Its been a while hasn't it? And a lot has happened.

    Tell me, how are you coping with unionref2 being booted into the next decade by our lovely Prime Minister? Maybe she saw the petition with 220,000 signatures on it and decided there was now enough of a groundswell of opinion against the SNP in Scotland that she could get away with such a thing. I'd like to think so - my name is on it.

    So where does this leave you now? With nowhere to go and time running out - and a Scottish election in 2021 - it looks like unionref2 could well be buggered for years and years and years. Perhaps for good.

    Ah well...

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    1. Been mega busy with work, dipped my toe back in here and you guys have been running amok ;o)

      Booted ? Really...last time I was here you were saying it will never even be asked for, why would we assume your forecast is any better now ?

      As per my prediction , EU will force UK hand on Scotland....you watch.

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    2. Why would it force the UK's hand, RM? What could there possibly be to gain? Another Greece and a very pissed off rUK, United States and British Commonwealth, I should think. Also, more than a few pissed off Scots once they realise they are getting Greece in the rain.

      Diplomatic niceties will prevail, as always. The UK will be treated as a single unit by Europe.

      And don't slag off my predictive powers too much - I knew you lot would get gubbed back in 2014 ;0)

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    3. I'd like to say as they are democratic and see the poor position a pro EU Scotland is in.

      However the realpolitik is for the same reason you won't get a good deal, pour encourager les autres...

      A shit deal and a break up of the UK will silence anti EU voices across the EU.

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    4. But there wont be a shit deal RM as both sides rely on a good deal being reached, for the sake of jobs and security. You forget how powerful Britain is and who its friends are. The USA will not want the nuclear alliance compromised by the break up of the UK, for one thing. European capitals also rely on our vast intelligence gathering service to keep their nations safe. That will end in the event of a poor deal or attempt to break up Britain (an act of war).

      So, no, your hoped for catastrophe wont happen. Also consider that the EU's internal problems are legion and wont be solved by trying to deliver punishment beatings to countries who wish to leave. No, those problems can only be solved by deep and far reaching reform.

      For a guy who dislikes empires, it seems you salivate over the creation of a European one. Seig heil!

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    5. Good to see Runny is back pontificating from whichever part of the globe is currently his home. Always amusing to be told what we should think by those who escaped at the first opportunity. Bath is a popular location for sanctimonious separatist claptrap I understand, though other locations such as California, Wallonia and the Bahamas are available.

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    6. It was the same when I was still on facebook. I've now deleted my profile as FB seems to be dominated by leftards and separatists but when I was still on it, two of the most prolific posters on Scottish independence were a Scot living in Canada and an Australian, living in Australia, married to a Scot. The latter scweamed and scweamed that she would never move to Scotland if we voted to stay in Britain. I told her that was no big deal and she'd be no great loss. Unbelievable!

      Running Man here is just worried he'll have to fill in more paperwork. Poor shame!

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    7. @D Stewart, Look mate just because you never managed to get out of your mum's basement does not mean the rest of us cannot travel.

      Does my work and travel somehow impact my Scottishness, is being born in Glasgow and living there 25 years not enough. Does my Glasgow born daughter(who goes to Uni in Edinburgh) not get me some claim. Maybe my tax money or my house entitles me to some fingernail grip on my roots ?

      Clearly as you can;t see much further than the end of your cul-de-sac , exit from EU impacts lots of us in differnt ways.

      Delete
    8. Paperwork...FFS we have a whole department who work on visas and relocation...I currently have valid business visas for Russia and India in my current passport, so that does not really impact me.

      England out of EU and Scotland in it with the right mix of UK/EU treaties is a perfect scenario for Scotland. We'll become EU hub for UK....That way we can get some decent paying jobs and I'll come back and clap all you unionists as you move to Sunderland.

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    9. Lolz Runny, you so funny. If it makes any difference I have worked in most of the large cities across the UK and for a time in Central Europe. My wife is a Slovak and we regularly visit family there. Indeed splitting up countries is something the Czechs and Slovaks have first hand knowledge of and those Slovaks who are interested find the potential splitting of the UK pretty much incomprehensible, but then most of them are far more exercised by Putin's activities in their neighbour Ukraine and regard any weakening of NATO with great misgivings. As for your claims to Scottishness, you might want to address those to the Teflon Pixie herself since she and Eck seem to be the ones denying you a say in Scotland's future.....unless you were to put your money where your mouth is and actually live and work here for the betterment of the workers paradise of course, but then your remark about Sunderland shows a lot about your attitude to the working class. Nice to look at from a distance the proles, very colourful when they want to be, but you wouldn't want them running your country.

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    10. Hahaha!!! iScotland as EU 'hub'! :0)

      Haven't you ever heard of a wee place called Ireland, Running Man? English speaking, low taxes, eurozone member, long established nation state and member of EU. Anyone thinking they'll get out of England to stay linked to Europe would be better heading to Ireland, rather than Scotland. Anyway, all this presupposes a hard brexit. That may not happen. Or, even if it does, it may not play out as disastrously as you hope. We could strike free trade deals with the USA, the Commonwealth and China, in short order. It could be that Britain becomes a global trade hub. Ever considered that?

      No, apparently - as you hate the UK so much that the idea of it being successful is too much to contemplate. The country that gave you life, happiness, opportunity - hated by you. You now hope it goes tits up so a wee bit can break off and give the middle finger over something that happened hundreds of years ago. It's pitiful, really.

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    11. Thats funny as the 2 Slovaks I know personally were amazed we voted No...Must be the company you or I keep or its just garbage you are talking.

      Delete
    12. Hey Aldo, check out that big blue bit between UK and Ireland.....

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    13. Hey, Running Man, check out something called 'ships' and 'planes'. Also check out 'border controls' and 'trade tarriffs' as any goods travelling through England between Scotland and the EU may be subject to both.

      Delete
  17. Trump administration plotting major military action against Syria. The Scottish independence debate may now be moot. We could shortly be an irradiated, lifeless rock. An improvement, in some respects, some might say.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Why would they turn Scotland into the Labour party ?

      Delete
    2. The Labour Party might be dead but it went to its grave having led a fulfilled life. NHS, welfare, workers' rights, minimum wage. Not a bad list of achievements to have printed on your headstone. When the SNP finally goes, the epitaph will be unprintable.

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    3. Its still a spring chicken Aldo and you know it

      Delete
    4. See? Even you have so little faith in the SNP that you think it has the lifespan of poultry.

      Delete
  18. "What causes your cringe" (from Running Man)

    I wouldn't call it 'cringe'. To be honest I don't really understand the use of that word other than in the context of what you do when you are embarrassed. I wouldn't say I am embarrassed to be Scottish - although the SNP craze has turned me against my homeland a fair bit. But embarrassment doesn't enter into it.

    No, what nats call the Scottish 'cringe' is actually an honest acknowledgement of Scotland's shortcomings. For example, who could reasonably argue that our Scottish 'news' is anything other than pure shite? Just watch it - it's terrible! Amateur night. And the Scottish football team? Woeful! The last time they did anything was 1998. And our main achievement then was only getting beaten 2-1 off Brazil. Scottish finances - pure shite. 15 billion in the red, every year: 10% of our economic output. Scottish politics and Scottish politicians - pure shite. Just listen to Derek McKay, Scottish 'chancellor'. Jesus H Christ! And the balance of power in our parliament is held by........the Green Party. Let that sink in for a moment.

    We aren't cringers. We just acknowledge reality. Scotland has a bit of a problem with just being a bit shit at everything. You can debate the reasons for that forever - but it is true. It is an inescapable fact of life.

    What we must do is contain the rot and not let it spread into things that actually matter. It's ok for our footballers to be crap. It's even ok for our media and politicians to be a bit rubbish. However, it is certainly not ok for something like our NHS, for example, to descend to a similar level of quality.

    And that is why we must maintain the link to something bigger - with greater resources and skills to have at our disposal. We must maintain the union - to contain the crapness and keep it away from the things we really care about and need to get by.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. There you go the unionist mindset in one honest posting. We're shit so better that we ask people in London to do it for us.....

      Why don;t you clowns step aside then and let other Scots who are willing to take it on. Quite simply as you are reasonably comfortable and don't really give a shit about anything other than the current moment.

      So definately cringe and sadly also very selfish. In fact a Conservative.

      I used to wonder why when revolutions happend that som much murder was carried out. I thought to myself, do people not just see the change and say OK lets get behind this.

      When I see this type of nonsense I can see why reactionaries are dangerous, they form a constant drag on change and in the end like barnacles on the bottom of a boat, they become a handicap to progress.

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    2. Put simply, Running Man, revolutions lead to so much murder and mayhem.because they always go too far and invariably end up replacing the ancien regime with something much worse. This is one of the reasons for conservatism - to stand against too much change too quickly. Incremental reform, not revolution, is the best way forward. Applying this doctrine to Scotland means that you don't throw off the top tier of government that has been in place for 3 centuries, but instead use the devolved powers to improve life in Scotland as much as possible. This is something the SNP has singularly failed to achieve. Why ask them to run up ten flights of stairs (independence), when they struggle to climb a single step? (Devolution).

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  19. "Scotland has a bit of a problem with just being a bit shit at everything."

    And therein lies the crux of the entire debate.

    Were this true (which, by and large, it isn't, football excepted), nationalists want to improve things and change them, while unionists are quite content with things they *should* by rights be unhappy about.

    The ideology of utter inertia.

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    Replies
    1. If that were true then why hasn’t the SNP improved anything over the last 10 years? The NHS is in a mess, same as in Wales, Police Scotland, Education, Roads. Part of me thinks its all part of the plan to create discontent against the ruling invaders, the bloody English. If Scotland could decide on its own, keep all its own tax revenue, control everything without the interference of the Tories (whilst conveniently forgetting that several recent Prime Ministers and Chancellors were Scottish) everything would be fine. I can’t think of anything that could be improved by independence.

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    2. NHS in Scotland is better served across more KPi's than any other 'partner' nation of the UK but you keep spouting it like that.

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    3. Is it inertia or damage control and limitation? A nationalist will see it one way, a unionist the other.

      Our NHS regularly misses its targets, running man. The new Queen Elizabeth hospital is woefully understaffed and under equipped. Yet the nationalists' main gripe is its name. They also misappropriate funds within the NHS - rediverting money away from things like cancer treatment and sick kids to fund free prescriptions for the middle class. Sorry, Tiny Tim, you won't be getting that life saving surgery on time - some rich people need free cocodamol and gonorrhea pills. Yeah, life's a bitch isn't it? But we need the votes.

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  20. Don't blame the British!

    We've been ruled by the EU for the past 40 years in case you've forgot!

    Funny isn't it that in our 300+ year history what we've achieved not just Nationwide but globally has placed a stain on the British union by a European Union!

    And one more point! We joined the ECC not the EU, they changed that during the cause of their 40 year dictatorship!!!

    They took from us, told us what we should do and then shit all over us!!!

    And you Scottish nationals are the biggest hypocrites in the whole of the British Union! You want to give up a 300 year Union for a 40 year European Union!

    You just couldn't make this shit up if you tried!!

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    Replies
    1. The British union has lasted 3 centuries - and endured countless wars, recessions and social upheavals. The European Union will not last 20 years in its current form. It must either loosen up, scrap the euro and free movement and return to a more 'bare bones' type of trade agreement - or go all out and form a superstate. But the fork in the road is just about here and Europeans will need to choose between the two aforementioned options. A loose arrangement does not benefit Scotland much as Scotland needs fiscal transfers to keep it afloat. A federal superstate gives us the subsidies - possibly - but in no way, shape or form can be portrayed as 'independence'.

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  21. Independence for Scotland would be a total disaster! And whether or not nationals understand this, independence means isolation from all other countries including unions federations etc!


    If all jocks around the world were aloud to vote in that referendum you would have seen a completely different result!

    By the way, I don't class all jocks the same! There's nationalists and unionists a like.

    I just think your referendum was a tad biased towards the nationalists because you have an SNP government lead by bitter people in a predicament they're not happy with and instead blaming their SNP elected government they turn to their nearest and dearest allies the English!! Who don't even have any say in the matter!!!

    Where was the English, Welsh and Northern Irish referendums?

    SNP can't be nothing more than a bunch of unskilled English hating insecure nationalists hypocrites!

    Although this sounds like I'm scare mongering The majority of nationalists saw this over 300 years ago and evolved into unionists! Which not only worked as an at home Unity, it also worked Globally and still does to this day! By influence not by force!

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