Saturday, 29 April 2017

A united voted for a United Kingdom


Once more there is a General Election. I’m rather tired of elections, but it could have been worse. I could be writing once more there is going to a Scottish independence referendum. A few weeks ago indyref2 appeared to be getting closer by the minute. Then it got kicked into the long grass by Theresa May telling Nicola Sturgeon that she would have to wait. Now the whole thing may depend once more on the outcome of the General Election. It’s time to think clearly.

There are only two people who can become Prime Minister. Either we keep Theresa May or gain Jeremy Corbyn. We know from past experience that opinion polls and betting odds are a poor indicator of the future. They are about as accurate as weather forecasts and just as likely to give you a surprise. For this reason it’s necessary to accept that Labour could win the General Election. What would happen if they did?

Given the present political makeup of the UK, it is basically impossible for Labour to win an overall majority. They have one seat in Scotland. This means that for Labour to govern they would require the support of other parties. This might or might not be a coalition. It doesn’t matter. Relying on the votes of other parties informally is still relying on them. If Labour had to depend on the votes of other parties it would have to make concessions to them whether there were a formal coalition or not. Which other parties would Labour depend on? Whose votes and MPs would Labour need to form even a minority government? Well obviously this would depend on the result. However it is worth noting that the Lib Dems have nine seats while the SNP won fifty six seats in Scotland in 2015. Realistically this means that in order for Labour to rule they will require the support of the SNP. This was the case during the last election campaign in 2015 when the SNP had only six seats. It is still more the case now. Simple arithmetic tells us that Labour cannot win on its own.



A Labour victory might not mean a coalition with the SNP. Whatever the parties say now, we would only find out if there were to be a “Progressive coalition” involving the Labour, Greens, SNP and Lib Dems when the General Election is finished. But whatever arrangement came about whether it was called a coalition or not, it would require some sort of deal. What do you suppose the SNP price would be? What does Nicola Sturgeon want most in the world? I cannot imagine Jeremy Corbyn being as firm with her as Theresa May has just been. This is not least because Corbyn has recently said he was “absolutely fine” with indyref2. This is a man who apparently has such a loathing of Britain that he consistently sides with our enemies. He would be delighted if Northern Ireland left the UK. Perhaps he would be equally delighted if Scotland left too. But even if he were the firmest of leaders, if his party depended on SNP votes to rule, what choice would he have but to agree to Sturgeon’s demands? This is the logic which saw Ed Miliband depicted as a puppet on the end of SNP strings. It applies still more so today.

If you want to keep indyref2 in the long grass, therefore you had better hope that Theresa May remains Prime Minister. It is likely that this hope will be fulfilled. I cannot imagine a time when the British public elect a far left Trotskyite IRA/Hamas sympathiser to lead them. Labour Party MPs themselves have frequently tried to get rid of him. They have in huge numbers expressed that they have no confidence in Mr Corbyn? Now these same MPs are trying to persuade us that the British public should nevertheless have confidence in him leading our country. This strikes me as just a tiny bit hypocritical.

Labour MPs may eventually get their wish. If Labour loses badly, even if Labour loses at all, surely Corbyn would go then. Or would he? No doubt the majority of Labour Party members would still vote for him to lead their party. I sometimes think the problem with Labour is not so much its MPs, many of whom are quite sensible, but its supporters, most of whom are not. It is simply not sensible to elect Jeremy Corbyn as your leader, not once, but twice.

The British public do not want socialism. We never have. When Labour has been moderate it has periodically been elected. Until Labour Party members come to accept that socialism is the problem rather than the solution, they will find themselves outside the mainstream pushing towards the edge of the extreme. By ditching socialism and becoming a social democratic party Labour may deserve another chance. But until that happens voting for the far left is as irresponsible as voting for the far right and morally as dubious.  

Even if Theresa May remains Prime Minister, even if she increases her majority this may not be enough to keep indyref2 in the long grass. This will depend partly on how the campaign goes and the main issues that arise. Obviously Brexit is still a main UK wide issue. Theresa May is looking for a mandate for her approach to leaving the EU. Perhaps this will also be an issue also in Scotland, but whatever people’s various views on the EU, there is still only one issue that dominates Scottish politics and it is not Brexit.

Until recently momentum was building towards indyref2. It was unstoppable. Then it stopped. Theresa May said “No, not yet, you are going to have to wait”.  Finally someone was firm with Scottish nationalism. A Prime Minister said "No" and Sturgeon found herself impotent. That’s where we are now. Theresa May can theoretically maintain this position for years.

The SNP have no right to an independence referendum whenever they want. The right to self-determination in international law is balanced by the right of nation states to maintain their territorial integrity. No-one thinks that the USA must allow its various parts to leave by means of a vote. Nor indeed does international law require any Western democracy to grant a constituent part a vote on independence. There is hardly a single one that would. The reason is that the international law regarding self-determination was developed in the context of decolonization and simply does not apply to long-standing democratic nation states. 

SNP supporters who continually go on about self determination likewise appear unaware  the fact that Scotland by a large majority decided to stay in the UK was in itself an act of self-determination. We did determine, because we did choose. Most commonly such historical choices are seen as once and for all. To continually re-run such votes would lead to international instability. 

However, although it would be possible and certainly legal for the UK Government to decide that the UK was constitutionally indivisible and that therefore there would never be indyref2, it is unclear that this is politically acceptable and fitting in with our traditions. Given enough support for the SNP over a sustained enough period, it is unlikely that a UK Prime Minister would continue to block indyref2 indefinitely. “This isn’t Spain, you know”. We govern with consent.

Scottish voters can either help Theresa May maintain her “not yet” stance or we can hinder her. It has never been more vital for Pro UK people to show Theresa May that we support her response to Nicola Sturgeon’s indyref2 demands.

But doesn’t voting for any Pro UK party show that we support Theresa May’s stance. No obviously not. Voting for Labour or the Lib Dems is a vote to kick Theresa May from office. This is not usually described as support. Quite the reverse.

Voting for Labour or the Lib Dems in Scotland is not going to help the situation. Neither of these parties can rule on their own. Each would require the votes of the SNP. Remember when Labour had nearly all the seats in Scotland. The SNP still used this fact to justify independence on the grounds that England voted Tory, while Scotland voted Labour. Both the Lib Dems and Labour favour giving still more powers to the Scottish Parliament while loosening still further the bonds that hold the UK together and calling the result federalism. Both the Lib Dems and Labour are responsible for starting the whole mess that is now called Scottish politics by demanding that we have a Scottish Parliament in the first place. It was Labour who first played the nationalist card by saying that Conservative rule was illegitimate in Scotland because we didn’t vote Conservative. This card then destroyed them.

There is only one truly Pro UK party in Scotland. Only if we vote for the Conservatives do we show that we support the stance that Theresa May has taken about indyref2. The Conservatives are in second place at the moment in Scotland. Every vote increases their share of the vote so that it becomes closer to the share that the SNP holds. If the Conservatives could increase their seats even by a few it would show that the SNP were past their peak and that Theresa May’s “not yet” stance is popular. Rising support for the Conservatives can be used by the Prime Minister to continue her block. Conversely if the Conservatives did badly in Scotland it might be difficult for her to maintain this stance as long as she wishes.



In this election I don’t believe in tactical voting. It amounts to propping up the declining Labour and Lib Dem vote when polling suggests that Conservative candidates have the best chance of defeating the SNP all over Scotland. Voting for the the Lib Dems or Labour hinders the key Pro UK goal of creating a united opposition that could go on in time to defeat the SNP. Moreover, every single Labour or Lib Dem MP is potentially part of a loose “progressive” coalition containing the SNP. The price of this so called progress would be indyref2. If a Conservative votes tactically for a Labour or a Lib Dem MP, it could be this MP's vote that gives the Lib/Lab/SNP pact the majority needed to topple Theresa May and Sturgeon the leverage she needs to demand indyref2.

Obviously I would prefer any Pro UK MP to be elected rather than a Scottish nationalist, but I don’t intend to spend the whole election attacking only the SNP. This negativity hurts the Pro UK cause. I will campaign positively for what I believe and vote for the party that I prefer. I suggest that you do likewise. 

But remember if all Pro UK voters united behind the Conservatives we would surpass the SNP and there would be no danger of our facing a divisive and damaging second independence referendum. It's time to stop voting tribally. It's time to vote for the party that has the best chance of standing up to Scottish nationalism. 

I tire of the Scottish electorate. Huge numbers of Scots who don’t want independence or don’t want it anytime soon still vote for a party that would like to have indyref2 next year. If you don’t want independence, never vote for the SNP. It’s as simple as that.

Huge numbers of Pro UK Scots were delighted when Theresa May stood up to Nicola Sturgeon, but many if not most will still say, I couldn’t vote for a Tory. Scottish politics is distorted. The vast majority of Scots vote for left of centre parties. It is this that justifies the SNP’s claim that England votes for the Right while we vote for the Left. Only when there is a Left/Right balance in Scottish politics will we once more be safe from Scottish independence. We can bring that day nearer in only one way and that is by voting for the Conservatives. A vote for any other party helps the SNP.

86 comments:

  1. Can you imagine a coalition of Corbynite Labour, Lib Dem, SNP, Plaid Cymru, Greens and SDLP, with an overall majority of maybe one or two seats? Could such a cobbled together grouping even agree on anything? They agree that they hate the tories but after the tories are gone they'll turn their fire on each other. Britain wont have a government in any meaningful sense. But you can easily see the SNP getting indyref2 out of it and saying 'this system doesn't work anymore, let's free ourselves from it'.

    Also, when will the left ever learn? If they were united behind a single, moderate party, they could easily win - as they did from 1997 to 2010. Instead they are divided not only by ideology but now by geography - and those of us who want stable and sensible government have no choice but to vote conservative.

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    1. Would it be as fractured as the current Tory party ? So riven with fissures its only held together by xenophobia and a catchphrase(Stong and Stable) anyone......?

      Even you Tory droids and goons must a bit red faced by the campaign so far. May looks like a caricature in a Monty Python sketch.

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    2. If the Tory party is fractured and pathetic, why have they been in power for 7 years and heading for another 5?

      I have to say that your SNP and its followers must share some of the blame for continued Tory rule RM. By making it impossible for Labour to govern without you, you hand the keys to the tories every time - as English people will not be ruled by a party that hates them. You have made the left unelectable in Britain. Even a polished, presentable, moderate Labour leader would now struggle because of you.

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    3. Sorry thats just bollocks and you know it, maybe I give you too much credit for having your eyes open.

      Nationalist supporters are not going to vote Labour, most ex Labour voters won't either.

      We have had Tory rule as its what middle England wants and it will remain thus until it doesn't. Its got absolutely nothing to do with the SNP.

      It's down to jump to the right of politicians in England as the Tories try to snuff out Ukip. Voters followed due to the disaster zone of 10 years of stagnant pay and media driven Xenophobia.

      You do make a great case for independence though :O)

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    4. So you break a system, then slag it off for being broken.

      I think what I make a case for here is a unified, centre-left force in Great Britain. When we had such a thing, it blew the tories off the map and we had 13 years of Labour government. If independence isn't going to happen then current nationalist voters will need to reconsider their allegiance in order to achieve what they would consider the next best thing - getting the tories out.

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    5. Centre left ? Who's that then ?

      Independence is going to happen.

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  2. Sorry but you are just wrong Effie... there are seats where only voting Lib Dem or Scot Lab will oust the SNP. You are calling for a blanket vote for the Tories simply because you are a Tory. Sorry but this far bigger than party politics. Scot Lab may win up to three seats through tactical voting and the some with the Lib Dems and it won't effect the number of Tory seats, nor will it effect the outcome of the general election - but losing a FURTHER six seats would certainly dent the SNP's IndyRef2 plans

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    1. The Filthy Alliance ? Labconfibs

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    2. The only alliance I'm seeing so far is on your end, RM - with the Greens ready to step aside to give the SNP a clear run. If liblabcon did that there would be uproar.

      I really do hope the SNP shaft the Greens by giving the go ahead for fracking.

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    3. Not true at all , Greens are standing aside in some English constituencies for Lab and Fibdems.

      I'd rather stand with the Greens than any of the filthy 3. SNP will never allow fracking, its a pipe dream by Tories who support fracking.

      Same as they won't support tuition fees. There are certain tenets of SNP policy that they won't move on as they hold that ground. As long as they don't move they can exclude others by saying Lab copying SNP policy.

      Its the mistake Labour made, they moved out of certain core policy points and allowed SNP to take up residence... Nationalists won't make same mistake having benefitted from it. Thus you have Labour squeezed in the middle and voters cannot see them.

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    4. If the SNP were against fracking, why did they abstain during a vote on it? Fracking would generate national income for Scotland, helping to reduce some of that deficit that is probably the no. 1 argument against independence. Growing the economy by allowing things like fracking must therefore be tempting for the SNP.

      I reckon there's a chance they'll use the Greens to their own advantage for a little while longer and then do the dirty on them. Time will tell.

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    5. I believe their position is to have a continual eternal moratorium , not an outright ban. In that way it cannot be challenged in court through planning process.

      My personal view is that a delay or perma delay is still fine, none of this stuff is going off if we just leave it where it is. Let technology advance until it looks safe. Its viewed as a bit nasty as its potentially under your home. Too many open questions and TBH we have enough Hydrocarbons in Scotland today.

      They just won't flip on that as a lot of SNP supporters are there because of it. My wife would chop up her party membership on a U turn on Fracking and would go full green.

      I have other environmental issues with SNP policy that are currently more damaging, around fish farms. Thats a whole different argument.

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    6. Its hard for a party of government to not permit a new and profitable industry when they have scientists saying its safe and everyone else is doing it. They start to look unreasonable. They start to look as if they are putting politics before progress. Even worse, they make themselves look like luddites.

      Imagine Holyrood had been around in 1750 - at the dawn of the industrial revolution - and had blocked coal mining or the use of steam? Governments should not stand in the way of progress. But, when they do, you often find that an offer of share of the proceeds is enough to get things moving. I'm not condoning it, but people are only human.

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    7. Not sure anyone was blocking usage of coal, its a bit cheeky to conflagrate standards of 21st century to 18th Century and say "thats probably you that is"....

      I would have hoped they would have done a bit more on industrial safety....

      Its not about politics above progress. Where is the need and why the rush in any case ?

      If anything there is a glut of HC fuel in the world today. As to my main point , its not going off anytime soon. Let technology catch up and let the need be driven by real need, not just a quick buck today.

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  3. You have a point Phil. If Labour or the Lib Dems are best placed to oust the SNP, you should vote for them. But a word of caution - you must base your tactical vote on current levels of support, not what happened in 2015. Seats where Labour was close then, they may now be totally out of the running due to the shift towards the Tories.

    I'm unlucky enough to live in a safe SNP seat. But at least it gives me the option to vote for the unionist party of my choice, as all I can hope to achieve is to contribute to the overall percentage vote share rather than oust the local MP. So I'll be voting Tory.

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    1. And you're thick. All things considered, I'd rather be a cnut ;0)

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    2. You're thick and a c**t. A thick c**t.

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    3. Lol - the intelligentsia speaks! :0)

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    4. You sound about 10 years old.

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    5. Glad you grasped the sarcasm chum.

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    6. Maybe you could communicate in words that actually exist. Just a thought...

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    7. It was YOU who used Lol chum I was merely mocking you. Whoosh

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    8. And you're in no position to mock anyone. You came on here, posted a falsehood and called someone a cnut. You can't throw away your credibility then try to mock others. Didn't your parents teach you anything?

      Actually, silly question - of course they didn't.

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    9. ScotKat is correct. you are a c*nt... a Tory c*nt in fact

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    10. Hello again Kat.

      Its so typical of the left to resort to foul language when losing the argument. And does anyone actually think anything of a woman who would use that word?

      Effie, this is usually a decent forum and I welcome the likes of running man, who debates in a reasonable fashion (mostly). But can't you do anything about these weans who are on the loose?

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    11. I'm from the left, I cannot always be seen to behave well :O)

      Not sure you can block easily on this platform, The Scot Goes Pop site has a couple of really really dire Lab/Tory spammers that seem to be impossible to block.

      I never read the comments on there now.

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    12. That would be Glasgow Working Class (GWC) and Mick Pork. Pork is a nationalist and fancies himself defender of the forum - spouting bile and tiresome repetitive posts at anyone he dislikes. GWC is just a dope who rails against the 'nat-si bhoys' as he calls them - but he can be funny. I do hope we don't end up with either of them here though.

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    13. Someone has a bot now that answers GWC automatically....we are almost lost as a species

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  4. Perhaps a tactical voting wheel would help. That worked so well last time..

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    1. Haha yes thats the way forward..... Hat tip Colin

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    2. Tactical voting in 2015 may have kept Scotland a 4 party country instead of being represented solely by the SNP. We know it worked even better in 2016, depriving the SNP of a majority in Holyrood and making their so called mandate for indyref2 less clear cut.

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    4. In fact the 'resurrection' of the Tories probably kills a lot of the tactical voting as both Lab and Tory voters think they have a chance e.g East Renfrewshire.

      Murray only survived due to smear tactics against his opponent. Beardy survived due to massive Tory spend and Carmichael just survived as the facts were not in the public domain.

      None of that was down to tactical voting at all

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    5. The majorities were small so we will never know for sure. Tactical votes are indistinguishable from other ballots.

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  5. Wow you yoons are all over place. You will never unite behind one party and that's a given. I guess it's party before country and that you're not as driven as the nationalists.
    Hey, just gonna leave this here....

    Scottish independence voting intention


    Yes: 51%
    No: 48%

    (Panelbase/Sunday Times / 30/04/17)

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    1. Got a link for that thickie? Because I can find no trace of such a poll.

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    2. Calling me thickie and you can't manage to find the source of this poll by yourself. Hahahaha

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    3. There are several sites that would be all over a poll like that the second it was released. Yet there's no mention of it anywhere. I suspect you have either misunderstood something or you're just making things up. But feel free to prove otherwise, by posting a link. The burden of proof lies with the person making the assertion and all that.

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    4. No I can't be bothered. I will just leave you to sweat. Bye x

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    5. So this is what you're reduced to? Making stuff up? There really should be a photo of some of you guys next to the word 'loser' in the dictionary. Kiss your independent Scotland goodbye.

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  6. Kat, do you want the good news or the bad news?

    Good news - your poll exists.
    Bad news - its irrelevant.

    Independence in EU: 41% support.
    Independence, no EU: 10% support.
    No independence: 49% support.

    So its more a poll about Europe than about indy. In a straight yes / no referendum, some of those who expressed a preference on Europe would inevitably come over to NO, having failed to achieve their preferred option on the EU.

    To summarise - a non standard referendum question that can be easily dismissed.

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  7. Scotkat apparently gives BJs doon the docks to anyone with a yes sticker on their baws

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    1. I'd rather stick it in a door jamb.

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    2. The SNP are the sleaze party these days - 3 in a bed sex, sleeping with journos in a love triangle etc. It's bloody disgusting......unless I get to do it...

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    3. As a straight man there is little to offer on that side from Politics these days....It seems overall now to be a honeypot for gay people. Maybe the lifestyle of a Politician appeals.

      I do love a good love triangle scandal. Its like the journo's are both jealous and disgusted, they cannot hide it.

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    4. I very nearly died laughing when the 'English rose' bedded by Hosie and the other guy described the SNP as the "Scottish Mujahideen". Did she mean they are smelly bastards? :0)

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    5. No they wear turbans in bed

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  8. So where do the 55/48 people put their cross? The Tories have plunged the UK into leaving Europe, by allowing an unnecessary referendum and then acting on a tiny majority result, all without a plan. Birth May and Davidson campaigned for Remain, so their hearts are not for Brexit. Strong and Stable Government it is not. In Scotland, the Unionist cause trump's (sorry) Europe, so May and Davidson get my cross, but very grudgingly.

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  9. The Tories have plunged the UK into leaving Europe,

    hahaha democracy is a bitch ...get bent

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    1. "The Tories have plunged the UK into leaving Europe"

      Tory and Labour played their part - the tories by signing Maastricht in 1993 and Labour by authorising the expansion of the EU in 2004 with no controls on migration. From that moment on, a British exit from the EU became inevitable. I would have put good money on this happening years ago - before Cameron even got a whiff of power and when UKIP were still a fringe movement of dads army types.

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    2. Dad's army types like you ... "We will not be lectured by them, far less ruled by them"....

      The dastardly Hun is now any European foreigner.

      Nice one Capt Mainwaring

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  10. Wow you guys are getting on famously, quite classy from Anon Tory/Yoon there, showing your colours there.

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  11. Westminster voting intentions :

    SNP 38.9%
    Conservatives 24.6%
    Labour 17.8%
    Greens 8.4%
    Liberal Democrats 6.2%

    This is lowest showing for Tories since election called.....Its nowhere Effies orgasmatron poll of 33%

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    1. SNP below 40% - significant! The last time that happened was years ago. Add in the shy Tory factor and a less than 100% efficiency of Green votes going over to SNP and you're still looking at losing a good number of seats - geographically large ones too, that look terrible on a map.

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    2. Poll was conducted by google, RM. They are a newcomer to the polling business and use a strange method of collecting data. Think we can write off this one.

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  12. Britain-wide voting intentions (YouGov) :

    Conservatives 44% (-1)
    Labour 31% (+2)
    Liberal Democrats 11% (+1)
    UKIP 6% (-1)
    SNP/Plaid Cymru 4% (-1)

    Tories lead over Labour halved since inital election called....Sleep easy Tory boys and girls

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    1. Corbyn will seal Labour's fate. Did you see Dianne Abbott on the news today? She had a car crash interview that was cringingly bad. Wouldn't let her run a bath.

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    2. Yes but while May could be hitting home runs she is slinking round Britain looking very awkward....

      Can they keep her hidden till June 9th...Her handlers clearly know how difficult she is for normal punters to digest.

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    3. It's her austere image that the people like. Here is a serious woman, who will work hard and keep the country safe - strong and stable, against the coalition of chaos :0)

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    4. Each to their own I suppose....I'm sure after a month of hiding from the cameras it may grate a bit...

      Its almost like the coalition of chaos are seen as the baddies here.

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    5. Hiding from the cameras is a strategy RM. Everyone else is out there screwing up - Farron arguing with pensioners, Corbyn sending out idiots to defend a flagship policy, SNPers changing their tune on indy every 5 minutes. After a month of that, Theresa May looks like the Queen - dignified and above politics.

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    6. Hardly dignified yesterday.....

      It will pan out as it does . I suspect we won't see the big Tory resurgence to the level painted in Scotland. SNP won't hit the highs of before but will still skate it with a bigger relative majority than the Tories will in UK as a whole. It'll be painted as a success for May and disaster for SNP.....

      Maybe some folk get turned on by the sneering of May yesterday, what do I know. I can never envisage voting Tory so I'm hardly your floater voter. I find her a real turn off. I prefer Cameron and Major.

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  13. poor zoomers sucking at the Barnett WM tit

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    1. That 'tit' is worth 15 billion to the country, every year. If you want to see 15 billion of cuts - schools and hospitals closed, benefits slashed, services slashed, jobs slashed, wages cut - then you are well to the right of the UK government, even if you don't realise it.

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    2. Why would all these things need to be 'slashed' , are bond markets just for posh Tories ?

      Enough of the scaremongering it's no longer effective. Whatever deficit we have will be dealt with same way it is today.

      Scotlands problem is not deficit, its stangnant growth. Exiting EU will continue that for a generation or more.

      Best case scenario for Scotland was always UK out fo Europe and Scotland in.....Its worst case scenario for North of England.

      If it comes to be then barring an EU implosion growth is guaranteed as a potion of UK EU commerce would move to Scotland.

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    3. Any country can borrow money - but why is a loan preferable to a much larger grant that is sustained every year in perpetuity? If someone offers to loan me a fiver but another person offers 15 or 20 quid that doesn't need to be paid back, I'm going to go with the more generous offer. In the context of our discussion, the generous offer is the union, the rubbish offer is independence. You are voting yourself poor.

      Depending on the outcome of brexit, Scottish Indy may lead to a hard border and trade restrictions with rUK. That would be devastating to the Scottish economy, which does 70% of its trade with rUK and 15% with Europe. I'm also not convinced about this idea that Scotland could attract business from England. Why would they come here? Why not France, Germany, Belgium or Ireland?

      I don't see why you love the EU so much anyway. They are increasingly acting like a hostile power. All they need is a modern day Lord Haw Haw and the picture would be complete. Britain doesn't need Europe. It is wise that we try to maintain as friendly a relationship as is reasonable - but we do need to maintain a certain distance. We will not be lectured by them, far less ruled by them.

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    4. Why not France or Belgium over Scotland...Maybe proximity, legal similarities and language ? Just to name 3 off the top of my head.

      Maybe North Korea will launch a nuclear attack so probably best we do nothing but live in our cupboards eehh ? Hard Border..blah blah...Ohh it might rain, clearly you see only problems and that England and London you are happy to be fully controlled by. At the same time you claim that you are somehow trapped by the EU who's influence is miniscule in comparison to London's.

      Its bloody May who is acting like a tin pot dictator who is increasingly seen to be losing the plot.

      'We will not be lectured by them , far less ruled by them' Spoken like a John Bull ....Magnificent.

      The irony is of course that you accept even more ruling and lecturing from London while professing to be Scottish...You swallow it all without any resistance. It's to you your duty....Really if folk like you are representative of the country we are utterly fucked.

      My god we really are in the midst of a madness.

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    5. BTW Tories wil dismantle Barnett, serious question ...At which point do you consider the union broken ? Where is your red line ? You lean heacily on Barnett , what happens when its gone ?

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    6. First, the divorce payment was 50 billion, then 60 billion, then 100 billion. They have briefed against the PM during an election campaign. They are acting like a hostile power and May was correct to call them out on it. Why oh why are you so madly in love with this dubious organisation that scorns democracy, imposes poverty and craps all over the nation that removed the fascist jackboot from their necks? I say fuck them. We can cut a deal with the Commonwealth and the USA.

      The Tories had the perfect chance to abolish barnett when the SNP pushed for full fiscal autonomy. They didn't, as it would have imposed unnecessary hardship on Scotland.

      At which point do I consider the union broken? It's not a sensible question. Pose the same question in the context of any other nation and it would not be logical. Hello, man from New York state, what would it take for you to want to break up America? He would either be confused by the question or, knowing New Yorkers, he'd give you a smack upside the head.

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    7. "We can cut a deal with the Commonwealth and the USA"


      Wow ...deluded much ? I diagnose late night drinking and internet posting. Even a dies hard union man like you knows that the chances of a 'Commonwealth' or US deal in under 5-7 years is virtually zero . A deal better than we have with EU is impossible.

      So you will be OK with union even when barnett is removed...Interesting. Anyway it won;t happen. The legend of Scottish parsimony can only be maintained as long as half our spend is done by London on our behalf.

      FFA would require a level of transparency that the union will never allow or survive.

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    8. What ARE you on about RM? Is this the conspiracy theory again that money that is officially spent in Scotland on crucial services is actually being spent on sweeties for tories? Anyone can come out with that bs. If the SNP claims a 10 billion pound spend on health, for example, what is to stop me saying 'yeah, that's what they would have you believe!'? When trust in authority breaks down to that extent, useful debate is no longer possible.

      If you have evidence of misappropriation, present it. That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence - Hitchens' razor.

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  14. "Any country can borrow money "

    So we can at last put all that shite about massive cuts to bed then.....

    In any case folk like yourself are keepling a very close tab on how much we 'owe' so its hardly a gift. Remember that when we leave you'll also cast up these free 'loans' to be paid...So lets not kid ourselves we're surviving at the kindness of London.

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    1. With a deficit of 10% of GDP, iScotland would find itself in the position of the Tory-LibDem government in 2010. Massive, deep cuts would need to be made in every department of the public sector just to keep our borrowing sustainable. The SNP has spent the last 7 years moaning constantly about those cuts - cuts it would have to do all over again in an iScotland.

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    2. Yet by your own admission they could borrow money...Borrowing from a position of having no or negligible residual debt and a positive balance of trade...

      So why would we need austerity max ?

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    3. No or negligible residual debt? Haha! You are deluded RM. I-Scotland would take its UK debt share. No choice really if we want to continue to have friendship with the nation on our doorstep that is a dozen times our size and strength.

      You nats really do think the universe ends at the border / coastline of Scotland.

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  15. That's the deed done.

    Tory 1
    Labour 2
    Labour 3
    LibDem 4
    LibDem 5

    Its a great feeling, exercising your democratic rights.

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    1. How did it goe in your ward ? Did you get any joy with your Tory vote ?

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    2. Nope. But 2nd and 3rd for Labour have done the trick. SNP presence reduced.

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  16. MY POINT Aldo is the zoomers don't realise it

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  17. All in all, not a bad election for unionism. SNP and Greeens failed to take 40% of seats between them, the SNP LOST control of DUNDEE! (Holy shit!), and failed to take Glasgow. Of all 32 Scottish councils, 3 are majority controlled - by independent groupings - with the other 29 being no overall control. Unionists are in a position to run most of them, if they work together. The SNP have fewer natural allies. The Greens are their buddies but are in very short supply in most places outside Glasgow.

    Not bad. Looking forward to reading Effie's piece on it.

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  18. HAHAHA THE ZOOMERS want independence but wouldn't survive a month without Barnett . 8 years and no currency plan , what does that tell you ? Fuds

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    1. Quite. Is it Sterling, Sterlingisation, an independent currency or the euro? They are unable to give a clear answer.

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